Hannah

Hello and welcome to The Deep Dive. I’m Hannah Mullaney, Client Solutions Director at Saville Assessment. And each episode I’ll be joined by an industry expert to discuss the hottest topics in assessment today. Let’s dive in.

00:00:21:03 – 00:00:33:00

Hannah

Hello and welcome to today’s episode of The Deep Dive. We’re talking about challenges in recruitment, and I am delighted to be joined by Andrew Meechan, Head of Talent Acquisition at Third Space. Welcome Andrew.

00:00:33:02 – 00:00:34:06

Andrew

Thank you for having me.

00:00:34:08 – 00:00:45:23

Hannah

Andrew We’ve been working together for a while now and I guess been on a bit of a journey, I wonder if you could set the scene by painting a bit of a picture of what that’s looked like for us.

00:00:46:00 – 00:01:08:02

Andrew

Yep. So I’ve been at the Third Space now for coming up to six years. I started as I was. I was the second person in the HR team. The business that was growing was growing very quickly, we grew by acquisition and I think our CEO and MD realized that if we’re going to continue to grow, we really needed to centralize recruitment.

00:01:08:04 – 00:01:36:06

Andrew

So prior to me joined in, it was a totally decentralized function. Responsibility for agreements that with the line manager and there was no real process and ways of doing things. And we’ve definitely been on a journey. Fast forward to today. We’re now a people team of 14. We have a people director that sits within the executive team. I think we’re front and center of everything that happens in the business.

00:01:36:07 – 00:02:02:19

Andrew

Yeah, we’re a real people centric organization. My role within talent acquisition really has to kind of bring it forward into the 21st century, which has been challenging but fun. Me By no means finished. Yeah. The work that we’ve been doing with Savills is really kind of mature in how we assess people, structure our processes and make sure we’re getting the best out of our hiring managers and our candidates.

00:02:02:21 – 00:02:18:10

Hannah

You talked there about the start of the journey and with recruitment devolved to line manager. So Ops being sat with line managers, But what were some of the challenges with that? What were the what was the impact of that?

00:02:18:12 – 00:02:26:00

Andrew

I think more broadly speaking, in the world of recruitment, everybody everybody thinks that they know how to do your job better.

00:02:26:01 – 00:02:27:23

Hannah

Yes, definitely.

00:02:28:00 – 00:02:45:23

Andrew

I won’t talk about my my individual experience. I think it’s in every corner of every business. Yeah. The biggest challenge in in recruitment is we are experts at what we do. Yes. And our job is to make sure that best practice exists everywhere.

00:02:45:24 – 00:02:54:19

Hannah

So fast forwarding to then, maybe today. What does that look like? How has the landscape changed where a recruiter is really adding value?

00:02:54:21 – 00:03:20:08

Andrew

Yeah, I think again, talking about my my individual experience, I, I’m really proud of the journey that that me and my team and the business have been on. You know, six years later, I’ve got a team of there are four of a three talent acquisition partners that you know, really do partner with all of their hiring managers to make sure that we are doing the best recruitment processes that we possibly can.

00:03:20:10 – 00:03:39:23

Andrew

You know, that’s still without challenge or with challenge, should I say. But, you know, very much is a partnership approach. I think our leaders in the business really do value the fact that they have that dedicated function, who are there to make sure that we are requiring great talent and doing something with them when they get there.

00:03:40:00 – 00:03:41:09

Hannah

And what are the challenges.

00:03:41:11 – 00:03:47:12

Andrew

In the world of recruitment? I think post-COVID, I hate saying.

00:03:47:12 – 00:03:48:20

Hannah

post-COVID, but I know It.

00:03:49:23 – 00:03:51:15

Andrew

Is a very, very different place.

00:03:51:15 – 00:03:53:12

Hannah

Yeah.

00:03:53:14 – 00:04:13:14

Andrew

The market right now, I think we are in a candidate heavy market, and some of our challenges are really being clearer around what’s virus, what good looks like, and, you know, not accepting mediocre. Really raising the bar in terms of the profile of the people that we look for.

00:04:13:14 – 00:04:17:22

Hannah

What does that look like? Right. Like raising the bar. That how how do you do that?

00:04:17:22 – 00:04:53:10

Andrew

I often talk about Amazon as an organization and the way the way that they recruit. They have a a dedicated ball raiser in their recruitment processes. And I really, really like that. That’s an individual that sits within the business that is not connected to the role that’s being recruited. And they’re ultimately they have the final say as to whether or not somebody get that individual gets hired, but that what they’re really looking for are the questions that they’re asking themselves is, is this person better than the previous person that was in the role or is this person better than the individuals that we currently have in a similar role?

00:04:53:12 – 00:05:13:16

Andrew

And and so it’s constantly benchmarking around what you currently have in the organization. And yeah, not but not not being willing to accept somebody just because you need somebody in that role. I think in our organization mostly, I always says to me, I don’t care how long it takes you to hire somebody. What’s most important is that we get the right person.

00:05:13:18 – 00:05:16:23

Hannah

how refreshing. Yeah, I feel like that’s rare.

00:05:17:01 – 00:05:18:10

Andrew

I think it’s rare.

00:05:19:09 – 00:05:26:02

Andrew

Absolutely. I know it in talent acquisition KPIs. Yeah. People measure their success.

00:05:26:23 – 00:05:59:00

Andrew

Time to hire is probably the most widely spoken about KPI, and I absolutely flat out refuse to have that be a measure of performance in my team or for our business. We have to think outside the box around, Well, how come we have a KPI in terms of what my team are doing and delivering? But I think if I was to set a target for a reduction of time to hire, what we’re doing there is encouraging the business to hire somebody just because they need to fill the role as quickly as possible.

00:05:59:01 – 00:06:06:00

Hannah

Yes, and it becomes a bums on seats exercise, not a let’s get the right person and the best person.

00:06:06:03 – 00:06:34:03

Andrew

To hire somebody who’s wrong. Yeah, they leave within a relatively short space of time. And we’re back to square one. But times higher always looks really sure because we’re always hiring people really quickly. So actually what we do is we pull our processes apart and, you know, how can we really be clear with people around what the role is and what the role is and make sure that we’re hiring people that are motivated to deliver what we need to do and setting them up for success from day one.

00:06:34:05 – 00:06:51:08

Andrew

Yeah. As soon as that becomes the time to hire, challenge your your cut corners and skip steps. Yeah, I somebody. Because you need to hire them as quickly as possible. Yeah. And as I say, it just becomes that revolving door of we need another, we need another, we need another because we’re never going to get it right.

00:06:51:10 – 00:06:58:10

Hannah

And do you get pushback from the business on not having that as a as a KPI? Or do they understand, I think.

00:06:58:12 – 00:07:19:24

Andrew

Less and less. You know, we have to be really clear with people around why? Why our processes exist. Yeah. And what the value is for them and for us. That means that we are an operational business. Members first organization and we need people to be in role. Yeah, in order for our members to have the service that they quite rightly expect.

00:07:19:24 – 00:07:28:22

Andrew

Yeah. So I always have to be mindful around how that impacts the operation. That certainly doesn’t mean that my team are up there thinking, well, I could take as long as I want.

00:07:29:19 – 00:07:55:24

Andrew

you know, there has to be regular updates. Yeah. Commitment. And so, you know, within this time frame we will have delivered X, Y and Z. This is my role within the your role is whatever that may well be. Yeah. So, so so so yeah I think the business understand what we do and why we do it. They appreciate that it’s about getting the right person and, and they’re very aware about the impact of hiring the wrong person.

00:07:56:01 – 00:07:59:03

Andrew

But the operations door comes first, and so you still do need to act quickly.

00:07:59:03 – 00:08:13:22

Hannah

Yeah. And what, what does some of that look like? Have you done education with your stakeholders around the impact of making the wrong hire, or is it something that they inherently understand?

00:08:13:24 – 00:08:36:24

Andrew

I think as a business, we’re really data data driven. Yeah. Ed I think a lot of people are surprised when they walk in to an organization like ours are actually how much we, we talk with factual information and we we’re very open. I think we’re very candid with with leaders in the organization. And that’s, you know, everybody that has something like a story that they need to tell.

00:08:36:24 – 00:09:12:02

Andrew

Yeah. And so, you know, we will talk to them about attrition and we’ll talk to them about, you know, success stories and also where we have our challenges and, you know, respective clubs in departments that may have a child may have a challenge. But why is that? What can we do about it? And so I think when we then, you know, talent acquisition will step in and say what our responsibility is to design a process where we are giving people the reality of the role and giving them as many opportunities to update as possible by the by by the time we get to offer and that Perspex that we know that they are fully aware

00:09:12:02 – 00:09:15:12

Andrew

of what the role is and therefore they are likely to stay in that role for longer.

00:09:15:12 – 00:09:39:07

Hannah

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Maybe stepping back a little bit from third space, obviously still drawing on that experience, but maybe I’m asking this question slightly more broadly. Yeah, of thinking about talent acquisition teams and successful talent acquisition teams, what does good look like?

00:09:39:12 – 00:09:40:15

Andrew

Good or great.

00:09:40:17 – 00:09:47:16

Hannah

Great, great challenge. Great look. What does great look like?

00:09:47:17 – 00:10:07:22

Andrew

I think I think recruitment as a as an industry, if that’s the word that we can use. Yeah. Is probably one is an industry that has a very negative perception. Go on LinkedIn now and have a look at your news feed and somebody will be talking about really bad recruitment experience that they’ve had or been ignored.

00:10:07:24 – 00:10:14:07

Hannah

why do you think that is? Like why, why the negative perception? Is it something that’s always been there? Is it something that’s got worse?

00:10:14:07 – 00:10:49:24

Andrew

I think I try and have a balanced view on it. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t when I read a disgruntled candidate talking about their experience, I have to try and put myself in their shoes. Yeah. And yeah, it’s about what do people expect quite rightly they expect to be communicated with, to be informed. They expect to get feedback, they expect to get feedback at the point that it’s told all that they’re told they will have that feedback and when they don’t get it, it’s very easy for people to go into a platform crawling then and scream about it and have a million people like it and back it up.

00:10:50:22 – 00:10:57:16

Andrew

That being said, if you put yourself into a recruit, issues and recruiters are really busy and the it never stops.

00:10:57:16 – 00:10:59:08

Hannah

Yeah.

00:10:59:10 – 00:11:26:10

Andrew

My team you know have various projects and really great sexy projects that they get to work on throughout any calendar year. But recruitment always comes first. And therefore, you know, things have to get past them. We really have to prioritize where we’re going to focus our attention. And so, so, so. So yeah, I think I think the negative perception exists because candidates don’t get what they deserve.

00:11:26:12 – 00:11:44:21

Andrew

But I also think that everybody should just not just I also think that everybody needs to put some perspective on it. Yeah. And what other people are doing. Yeah. You know, we don’t always get it right. We do make mistakes. We are human robots.

00:11:46:16 – 00:12:18:06

Andrew

So, so, so going back to your question about what does great look like, I, I think externally candidate experience is fundamentally the number one most important thing. I’m really fortunate that I work for a member of a private member’s organization and everything that we do is geared around our members experience. And that was really nicely when we talk about candidates, parents, because they should receive the same level of service that a prospective member receives.

00:12:18:08 – 00:12:40:16

Andrew

so yeah, externally great talent acquisition is really, you know, love in your candidates and making sure that you’re doing the best possible job for the when we talk about the best possible job that that might or will often be telling people information that they don’t want to hear. But everybody thinks that they’re the most suitable person for the job.

00:12:40:17 – 00:12:52:23

Andrew

Actually, if you are confident to tell them that they’re not and why as early in the process as possible, that might not land very well. But actually it’s the best thing to do. Yeah, it’s a bit like dating.

00:12:52:23 – 00:12:54:02

Hannah

Yeah.

00:12:54:04 – 00:12:57:09

Andrew

My interest is no one ever tells you that they’re not interested. They just go with it.

00:12:57:09 – 00:13:00:12

Hannah

Just go see.

00:13:00:14 – 00:13:26:00

Andrew

So. So, yeah, I think. Yeah, externally. But we have a duty of care to people more broadly who, you know, might be going through a difficult time or they might be nervous or trying to think of objectives around people feeling nervous. And our job is to really make them feel like they’re cared for. Yeah, I genuinely believe that they are.

00:13:26:01 – 00:14:00:19

Andrew

Yeah. You know, give them the reality about about what they’re about to go through and make sure that they’re fully informed and have a forum to be able to ask questions and a point of contact. I, I think internally great talent acquisition is we can talk about the role of a business partner, but when you’re partnering with somebody really knowing the balance of when to support somebody, but also when to challenge somebody, I think a great recruiter or a great business partner is very comfortable saying no.

00:14:01:00 – 00:14:21:20

Andrew

Yeah. As opposed to yes. Yet the easy thing for us to do is to say yes, but actually saying to somebody, No, I’m not going to do that for you because that’s the easy way out. This is what I need you to do and I’m going to coach you and I want to encourage you to do that yourself as a far better return on investment than just say yes, yeah, tick a box.

00:14:21:22 – 00:14:25:09

Hannah

And do you think recruiters are generally. Yes, people.

00:14:25:11 – 00:14:45:00

Andrew

Are, yeah. I think by nature of the Yeah yeah yeah I we it is a demanding role we are privileged people pleasers If you think about your hiring manager, you know we absolutely want to please them and find them the best candidate and then if you can provide the candidates in the process, we absolutely want to please them.

00:14:45:00 – 00:14:50:21

Andrew

Yes, we are absolutely frightened to death of a negative lens every day.

00:14:50:23 – 00:15:12:06

Hannah

And is that where that people pleasing comes from it all? It’s probably multifaceted. It multifaceted. And we could do a whole other podcast episode on this one topic, but in maybe one question like yeah, where does it come from that that people pleasing characteristic.

00:15:12:08 – 00:15:17:19

Andrew

Is that some thoughts that come back to that one that I don’t have the answer off the top of my head.

00:15:17:21 – 00:15:35:01

Hannah

So we’ve talked about great what great looks like what does not so great look like? What have you seen or heard of over the course of your career that has made you go? Actually, that’s probably not how to do it.

00:15:35:03 – 00:16:03:17

Andrew

I think I I’m often baffled when I’m speaking to people in the industry around how recruiters or or business partners aren’t really clear from the get go around what the expectations are. I think, you know, if you are looking to fill a role as quickly as possible with a time to hire, we really need to be clear about, well, what is this?

00:16:03:18 – 00:16:22:09

Andrew

What’s the problem that we’re trying to solve? What does that look like? I’m going to go out there and do that. And these are the key points that things are going to happen. So I think not great things taking too long. A lack of communication are all parties that are concerned because no one is clear around whether things should happen.

00:16:22:11 – 00:16:46:09

Andrew

And there’s nothing more frustrating for me if I’m, you know, running a recruitment process and I’m getting the final interview. And I’ve just found out that the hiring managers are on holiday for three weeks because I didn’t anticipate that coming, because I never ask the question in the first place. Yeah, or there’s nothing more frustrating for a hiring manager who finds out that I’m out of the business for two weeks because I’m off on my holiday.

00:16:46:11 – 00:17:14:06

Andrew

I don’t ever told them that that was happened. You know, the communication has to be really, really clear from the outset. We need to be really clear about who who needs to be involved, who needs to be engaged in this process. And at what point is that relevant? So, yeah, I think cutting corners or. Yeah, missing steps out the process actually results in that perception of.

00:17:14:08 – 00:17:31:20

Hannah

Yeah, absolutely. And maybe just to pick up specifically on something you talked about there around almost everyone being on the same page in terms of what you’re looking for. A Be really interested to hear from a practical perspective. What does that look like when it’s done really well?

00:17:31:21 – 00:17:55:10

Andrew

It’s going to sound really bizarre, but I was having a conversation with with a member of my team a few weeks ago about ordering a pizza. Yeah, sometimes you can talk about recruitment as if you’re ordering a pizza. So, you know, a hiring manager has decided that they want to get a new pizza and they want a thin sliced 12 inch.

00:17:55:12 – 00:18:05:14

Andrew

Yeah. With a tomato base. Yeah. And extra cheese, pepperoni, chili, some rogue, like a bit of pineapple on that.

00:18:05:16 – 00:18:07:22

Hannah

wouldn’t be my choice.

00:18:09:06 – 00:18:24:14

Andrew

And you know, they send their order through. And if you’re ordering a pizza, are you a bit older? I’ll be with you in 40 minutes. And it’s got to look exactly as you’ve ordered. It’s got to taste exactly like you want it to. And if it’s not, then you can get a refund.

00:18:24:16 – 00:18:26:03

Hannah

Yeah.

00:18:26:05 – 00:18:55:07

Andrew

There are no refunds. And I think yeah, we talking about getting on the same page. It was really easy to order a pizza and it’s really easy to look at those instructions, follow it to the end degree, and the output is exactly what somebody is looking for. The reality in recruitment is that it’s never the case. You can write a job description and you can try and get a bit of rationale as to why you need something, but actually putting yourself into a future state of mind.

00:18:55:07 – 00:19:29:23

Andrew

And what does success actually look like? What is the problem that we’re trying to solve here? Because the problem doesn’t always need to be a short term fix. So I have to send my team into their meetings. And, you know, it’s really important that they can get the manager thinking about what success looks like when that person has been in the role for three months, when that person has been in the role for 12 months and actually been able to articulate up and surprised it often how many or yeah, it’s surprising how often people haven’t thought about that.

00:19:29:23 – 00:19:46:00

Andrew

They like been asked that question because it really challenges them to think differently about what they need and what they’re looking for. Yeah, it also allows us as recruiters to have better conversations with candidates because we, you know, we’re not talking about this is the job that I’m looking to hire and it’s a meet. It’s an immediate effects.

00:19:46:02 – 00:20:01:00

Andrew

We can talk more about in one year’s time. This is what you’re going to be doing and this is how you’re going to be speaking. And these are the relationships that you will have had and the impact that you will have made. A We can’t know if you haven’t thought about that and share that with us.

00:20:01:03 – 00:20:13:15

Hannah

Yeah. And I guess that then means that you’re more likely to hire the right person, but also probably makes for a more engaging candidate experience that level of detail.

00:20:13:15 – 00:20:31:20

Andrew

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mapped out the process as well from start to finish. I was having a conversation with one of my team today and we we make little kind of like introduction parts of the candidates. You know, this is the role that we’re looking to recruit. There are some of the key team members that yeah, right in with it.

00:20:31:21 – 00:20:56:12

Andrew

You know the benefits and what it’s like working here and actually what we’re not going to do is start the process into those documents. You know, how many stages are they? When are they likely to happen? Who are you going to be meeting and what’s going to happen? Several assessments and wave will absolutely, absolutely be something that goes in there because we we need candidates to know that that’s what they’re going to do.

00:20:56:12 – 00:21:01:12

Andrew

Yes. And give them the opportunity to ask those questions at the start. Yeah. We can then guide them through that process.

00:21:01:14 – 00:21:47:14

Hannah

Absolutely. And I think that point to our communication is really key in terms of as much with candidates as with stakeholders in the business. And I was having a conversation earlier today with a couple of the team around training and socialization and upskilling and assessments within organizations, within within our clients organizations. And actually we felt that the one kind of stakeholder that was often missed out is the candidate and actually information around what why you’re doing these assessments, what you’ll need to do when doing them, what what they look like, and then any feedback that they might get, how how they should understand that.

00:21:47:16 – 00:21:52:24

Hannah

Like those are three really important things that recruiters. Yeah, probably always want to think about.

00:21:53:02 – 00:22:19:22

Andrew

From my perspective, I’m really I shouldn’t be surprised, but I’m really surprised that the more broadly speaking, the candidate, the candidate gets overlooked because like they absolutely have to know, you know, if I’m asking somebody to go online and spend 40 minutes being reinforced to answer the question, yeah, I need to understand why. Yeah. And it will all have our own unique ways of explaining them.

00:22:19:24 – 00:22:50:10

Andrew

But there needs to be some explanation as to why that’s happened and expecting someone to go and then come to a structured competency based interview with no idea as to why we ask those type of questions and how to structure a response. It’s just setting somebody up for failure. Exactly. I think. Whereas I would never put a candidate in front of a hiring manager and and expect them to fail because that would be the worst outcome for everybody.

00:22:50:16 – 00:22:51:22

Andrew

Yeah, Yeah, for everybody.

00:22:51:22 – 00:22:52:09

Hannah

Yeah.

00:22:52:11 – 00:23:05:18

Andrew

I we’re always really clear with people that, you know, what, what we’re doing with this process is we want you to be successful, okay? But we want you to know and therefore we’re going to give you as much information as possible.

00:23:05:19 – 00:23:06:09

Hannah

Yeah.

00:23:06:11 – 00:23:19:06

Andrew

In order for it to be. Yes. However, it’s always really good. Then when you’ve got a candidate that then turns up and they let you down because you have to prepare, because yes, you set that expectation with them from the start.

00:23:19:08 – 00:24:04:08

Hannah

But that’s beyond your control. You’ve done everything you can do. Thinking about the the journey that you’ve been on over the last few years, moving from a place where everything was completely decentralized, bringing a lot more sort of structure and process and rigor and science into recruitment, and then, you know, taking that even further, making sure your recruiters are really like partnering with line managers and, you know, where appropriate, challenging them, but asking really good questions and really getting everybody to clearly understand what the end game is.

00:24:04:10 – 00:24:24:16

Hannah

I’m sure they’ll be many other people who listen to this podcast who will be somewhere on that journey. And I think people are always really interested to hear from other people who’ve done it. Been there, got the T-shirt, what would you say would be some of the biggest learnings for you having gone through the process yourself?

00:24:24:17 – 00:24:31:09

Andrew

Well, I mean, first of all, you’ve got to be up for a challenge. Yeah. And if you know, then you should probably get off the train now quite frankly.

00:24:33:17 – 00:25:00:13

Andrew

I think you’ve really got to believe that the work that you’re doing and the change that you’re the changes that you’re making are a force for good. You know, the way that the things that we’ve implemented and there are ways of work. So that’s not been easy. But nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it? So, so, so yeah, you know, be aware that they’re all going to be derailed.

00:25:00:15 – 00:25:24:15

Andrew

Yeah. You know, it’s not going to be easy. You might have to parks and things etc., etc. but it’s all for the greater good and you’ve got to be really clear around what that might look like. I also think for me, I really have to think very carefully about what I’m going to care about. You know, I could spend all of my time crying and mode it and saying that nothing’s working and no one likes me.

00:25:24:15 – 00:25:29:06

Andrew

And this is really hard, but actually that’s not going to get me anywhere.

00:25:30:03 – 00:25:40:12

Andrew

You know, things aren’t always going to go as planned. Someone’s always going to do something that you least expect from them, and that is okay as long as you have a plan to stop that happening again in the future.

00:25:40:14 – 00:25:50:02

Hannah

Well, what were some of the kind of biggest challenges kind of from a practical perspective that you had to overcome? And how did you do that?

00:25:50:02 – 00:26:13:09

Andrew

Yeah, I think it’s introducing structured assessments, psychometric assessments, you know, a reason and a rationale as to why each stage of a process exists can be quite difficult for people, especially when you’re working with people who are, you know, really experienced in in their field. They’ve been doing this job for years, They’ve recruited for years and years. I know what I’m looking for.

00:26:13:09 – 00:26:29:14

Andrew

I know how to do. I know how to do record. Yeah. Why? Why are you making me ask that really rigid question and probe as yet from a challenge perspective, I’ve certainly been met with that challenge a number of times.

00:26:29:16 – 00:26:36:07

Hannah

And. And how have you dealt with that or what’s been the most effective?

00:26:36:07 – 00:26:44:13

Andrew

I think I’m okay with that because I’d rather know where someone’s coming from. Yeah. Be able to work on that than for them to hide it from me.

00:26:44:18 – 00:26:45:23

Hannah

Yeah.

00:26:46:00 – 00:26:53:19

Andrew

So, yeah, you know, if somebody is uncomfortable with something I’m asking them to do, I’ve missed a bit there. And therefore we need to go back to basics and start again.

00:26:53:22 – 00:26:58:08

Hannah

And what does that look like? Going back to basic basics again, from a practical perspective, I.

00:26:58:08 – 00:27:23:14

Andrew

Think acknowledging that you’re both that different. Yeah. Points and they are not being prepared to accept that that’s okay. Yeah, we, we’re going to sit down We you know what it could be anything couldn’t it. But I think you know you really need to look at leaders on a case by case basis. And, you know, some of some people will absolutely embrace anything that you you do and deliver.

00:27:23:14 – 00:27:44:19

Andrew

And I love it. And it’s great. And other people might might not feel that way. And so, you know, working with those people, understanding that there’s probably more work to do but agree and yeah yeah committing to working on that together is Yeah. Where you partner in. Yeah.

00:27:44:21 – 00:27:47:19

Hannah

Do you become a bit of an educator. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:27:47:21 – 00:28:11:17

Andrew

Yeah. I think I do. I think the world of recruitment is always changing and we, we need to stay ahead of the game as well. Yeah. Because we need to be there before everybody else gets there. And our job sometimes is explaining something that’s really old, familiar to people. Yeah. That, you know, this is real and it’s here and exists and this is what we’re going to do about it.

00:28:11:19 – 00:28:19:01

Andrew

And this is what you need to do about it. And I know you’re not okay with that, but we’re here to work together and we’ll get there.

00:28:19:04 – 00:28:33:15

Hannah

And how does that intersect with the the people pleaser piece that we talked about earlier? Does does that make does does the people pleaser element make that job of educator sometimes challenge Challenger Quite difficult for some people?

00:28:33:15 – 00:28:40:23

Andrew

Yeah, absolutely. I think I think if you if you’re a people pleaser, I’m a people pleaser.

00:28:42:07 – 00:29:04:09

Andrew

Not in this instance. If you’re saying to somebody right these are one of the tools that we use in for this recruitment process, these are the reasons why. And they say, I don’t want to I want to do things my own way. A people pleaser was like, okay, tell me about that. And the hiring manager will say, I’m just going to ask you a load of random question.

00:29:04:11 – 00:29:06:18

Hannah

And have a nice coffee.

00:29:06:20 – 00:29:36:24

Andrew

And if I was to then say, okay, we’ll do it your way, I’m learning about recruitment process. So yeah, the role of the role of the educator, if we think the role of the partner is, you know, you can call yourself a business partner if you want, but you know, the partnership, if think about your relationship with or if I think about my relationship with my partner, you know, we care about each other, we support each other, we love each other, but sometimes we really dislike each other.

00:29:37:03 – 00:29:53:19

Andrew

Sometimes we’re going to fight and we’re going to argue, Yeah, but I’m going to sit down. We’re going to talk about it. We’ve got to get to a place where there’s a bit of common ground. We are going to educate each other. You know, we are going to have different points of view and different perspectives, but, you know, we’re in this together and therefore you’ve got to get on an even page.

00:29:53:19 – 00:29:59:09

Andrew

And I think it is exactly the same partnership that you have with with your stakeholders in a business.

00:29:59:10 – 00:30:06:15

Hannah

Yeah, it’s almost like don’t be don’t be scared of the conflict because you get interests that you’ll be able to work through it together. 

00:30:06:17 – 00:30:14:09

Andrew

And sometimes there is conflicts, but fundamentally everybody wants the same outcome. Yeah. So let’s cut the crap.

00:30:14:11 – 00:30:16:12

Hannah

Yeah, yeah.

00:30:16:14 – 00:30:20:02

Andrew

Put to one side and have a plan to move forward.

00:30:20:03 – 00:30:42:15

Hannah

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Andrew, could you close this out by giving your kind of top three pieces of advice to someone who is at the very beginning of this sort of order Taker to business partner journey. So for a leader is taking that team on that journey.

00:30:42:15 – 00:30:44:17

Andrew

Yeah, I’ve got all these pizzas that I need to make.

00:30:44:18 – 00:30:46:10

Hannah

Exactly.

00:30:46:19 – 00:31:13:22

Andrew

But I don’t want to do that on. I want to love and care for someone. Exactly. Yeah. So, number one, have a plan. And stick to it. Yeah. Thinking about everybody that needs to be involved and everybody that needs to be influenced on the journey that you’re about to go on and accept that there will be derail us. And it’s not going to be easy, but have a plan around what you’re going to do about those.

00:31:13:24 – 00:31:25:17

Andrew

And if you haven’t got a plan, you need to have a network of people that have been through exactly the same as you have that you can reach out to and say, I don’t have a plan anymore. Can somebody help me?

00:31:25:17 – 00:31:30:06

Hannah

You know, your inbox is now going to be flooded with everyone asking for your plain.

00:31:31:22 – 00:31:32:13

Andrew

And complain, because I’ve not replied.

00:31:36:10 – 00:31:40:15

Hannah

Andrew, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us today.

00:31:40:17 – 00:31:49:18

Andrew

Thank you.

00:31:49:20 – 00:32:12:00

Hannah

We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode of The Deep Dive. If you have, please remember to like and subscribe to. Stay tuned for all our latest content. If you want more information on any of the topics you’ve heard today, check out the show Notes for Case studies, resources and articles. I’ve been Hannah Mullaney. See you next time on the deep dive.