Hannah

Hello and welcome to the Deep Dive. I’m Hannah Mullaney, client solutions director at Saville Assessment. And each episode I’ll be joined by an industry expert to discuss the hottest topics in assessment today. Let’s dive in.

00:00:20:21 – 00:00:33:24

Hannah

Hello. In today’s episode, we’re talking about managing talent in a digital age. I’m joined by Mike Rugg-Gunn, who’s written an excellent and very interesting book on this topic. Welcome, Mike.

00:00:34:03 – 00:00:35:04

Mike

Hi Hannah.

00:00:35:06 – 00:00:48:13

Hannah

Mike, you start the book by talking about the importance of the business context. how does the business context impact on talent management strategies and solutions?

00:00:48:15 – 00:01:13:03

Mike

Well, it’s a very, it’s a very large topic. And, it’s impacted both by external factors and internal factors. if you look at external factors, the one that’s most important at the moment is that of AI. There is no part of talent management that is not impacted by artificial intelligence. recruitment in particular is impacted by machine learning.

00:01:13:05 – 00:01:36:18

Mike

that’s able to reduce the cost of hires and free up recruiters to indulge in more meaningful and strategic work than they perhaps have been able to do in the past. In selection, we also see, volume assessment processes being automated, again, reducing the cost of hire in the area of retention. It is helping to predict attrition, and also measure performance.

00:01:36:20 – 00:02:06:10

Mike

And finally, in the areas of learning and development, it is able to, personalized learning pathways, based on machine learning that’s able to, estimate the impact of different learning content. So across all areas, AI is making a big difference. I think the critical thing here is to understand that just as we are concerned about AI, naturally, in terms of its, ethics, that matters and talent management too.

00:02:06:12 – 00:02:40:12

Mike

And I can give you one particular example whereby, certain area of facial recognition, for example, there’s been recent research to show that, African American and Asian faces have been misidentified 10 to 100 times more than Caucasian faces. And that research came out in airport surveillance, but it hasn’t appeared relevant to talent management two, which is why, facial recognition has been dropped from video assessment, interview processes by organizations such as High View.

00:02:40:14 – 00:03:02:16

Mike

So there are dangers out there, and it does need to have some sort of constraints on it, not just in talent management, I would suggest, but nationally and globally to AI. So AI is the first thing I think. second error I guess is in terms of data, more data, data traverse the internet now and every second, was stored, 20 years ago.

00:03:02:18 – 00:03:22:18

Mike

And if you speak to senior leaders and managers, they’re saying, it’s like a fire hose coming at us. You know, we’re being drowned and drenched in it. And, there’s a need, really, to understand how to make the very best use of data coming through, whether that’s unstructured or structured data. And I think one solution to that actually is to have a data strategy.

00:03:22:20 – 00:03:51:16

Mike

So that’s about identifying, collecting, collating and warehousing and democratizing data so that the people that need it have easy access to it when they need to, to make the right choices going forward. and that’s, I think, a particular challenge for people at the moment. Yeah. I think the, the next year is probably in understand the difference between digital transformation and digital disruption.

00:03:51:18 – 00:04:17:08

Mike

People, I think, sometimes tend to confuse the two. digital disruption, if we deal with that one first, it’s much rarer. And this is where a new entrant comes into the marketplace where they an offer that creates so much value that the current existing businesses can’t compete with that. it’s usually a platform based business that disrupts a product business.

00:04:17:09 – 00:04:57:05

Mike

And I’ll give you an example of what I mean. Intercontinental hotel Group, which own a Holiday Inn brand. and which started in 1954, have over 6300 hotels and resorts globally. And they have a market capitalization of about 12 billion U.S. dollars. They’ve been disrupted, as most hotel groups have, by Airbnb, of course, in 2008, which has no hotels, employees, no hotel staff at all, and has a market capitalization of 100 billion U.S. dollars, in other words, 12 times eight times that product.

00:04:57:09 – 00:04:58:06

Hannah

Yeah.

00:04:58:08 – 00:05:00:22

Mike

Of, of Intercontinental hotels.

00:05:01:00 – 00:05:02:00

Hannah

Some disruption.

00:05:02:00 – 00:05:27:11

Mike

It is some disruption. And it shows the value of platforms over products, particularly digital transformation. is much easier. that’s where businesses are working on evolving business models, that are new and different. to provide and create value for customers, employees and shareholders. so I maintain in the book that I think digital disruption is quite rare.

00:05:27:12 – 00:05:58:22

Mike

You might see it, in terms of, Airbnb, a, a source, Uber, Netflix. But, digital transformation is much more common. The pandemic had a transformative effect, across both consumers, and the wider population. But I think in particular, behaviors that were predicted to change over 3 or 4 years actually changes over 3 or 4 months.

00:05:58:24 – 00:06:25:16

Mike

and the most obvious one in terms of talent management is people working from home, which is now so-called hybrid working. I think the cat’s out of the bag now. I don’t think it’s going to be in change any time soon, but I think the honest assessment is there is a tension between leaders who want their workers back in the office and workers who have found newfound freedoms and really don’t want to go back, to the boring commute part the time.

00:06:25:17 – 00:06:26:11

Hannah

Of five days a.

00:06:26:11 – 00:06:58:05

Mike

Week absence. So, I think this has had a significant effect, too. on people’s working habits and, as impacted time management in many ways. And I think the, the other element that I discuss, I think, is the growth of the gig economy. this is freelancers. some people predict that by 2040, 40 to 50% of employees will have worked on their own or been working on their own.

00:06:58:07 – 00:07:18:19

Mike

So, you organizations, large organizations, and I find it really quite difficult to recruit, these, gig economy workers, freelancers understand their value in the talent, particularly digital talent. And, they want to work on their own because that gives them the flexibility to work with whom they want to, when they want to, where they want to.

00:07:18:21 – 00:07:32:14

Mike

And, that’s a challenge. I think particularly for HR business partners, in understanding how to blend full time employees with gig economy workers to provide a cost effective solution to their talent needs.

00:07:32:16 – 00:07:35:17

Hannah

And I guess that’s where data’s really important, right?

00:07:35:22 – 00:07:46:02

Mike

Yes, it is. Absolutely. And, absolutely critical and, getting the right sort of data to stand, what it is that, is going to make the best choice.

00:07:46:02 – 00:07:50:15

Hannah

It’s going from that idea of democratizing data is really, really interesting.

00:07:50:19 – 00:07:52:13

Mike

It is. And sharing with everybody.

00:07:52:14 – 00:07:59:13

Hannah

Yes, yes, definitely giving everyone access to the power that it may give it.

00:07:59:15 – 00:08:23:12

Mike

Indeed. And I think particularly, we just touched on it that the importance of unstructured data, structured data tends to be more quantitative. But what’s really exciting in today’s unstructured data, that’s much more qualitative in nature. a lot of it coming from social media and how you clean and gather that and check it for reliability and validity to make sure it’s fit for decision making purposes.

00:08:23:12 – 00:08:34:24

Mike

I think it’s a really interesting challenge. but it does provide insights that are much richer in detail than you sometimes get from more established quantitative data sources.

00:08:35:00 – 00:08:36:04

Hannah

interesting.

00:08:36:06 – 00:09:02:02

Mike

I think, internally, talent management is impacted by strategy and the rules of strategy. You’ve probably followed that from Michael Porter, have been writing up business strategy for about 30 or 40 years, and some of his rules and, models still hold sway, but some of them have changed because digital transformation and digital disruption have changed the rules of competition.

00:09:02:04 – 00:09:27:22

Mike

For example, they’ve encouraged a two way conversation now between the customer and the consumer. And it is possible now to personalize learning content for each consumer. And these weren’t imaginable 20 or 30 years ago. I think that means that, part of his theories are still relevant, but you have to, adapt them, if you will, for the New world, that that’s upon us right now.

00:09:27:24 – 00:09:47:01

Mike

So that’s, certainly one area. I think the other one I’d certainly like to talk about is culture. Peter Drucker says that, culture is strategy for breakfast, and I think he’s right. you can have the best strategy in the world going forward, but it means nothing, actually, if you don’t have an enabling culture to action it in the business.

00:09:47:03 – 00:10:07:17

Mike

And I talk quite a lot about culture. in the book, because I do see that as a vital component. I think the key element here in terms of talent management is, how do you take your employees with you when you are seeking to change culture and get them to adopt new behaviors that are relevant for the digital age?

00:10:07:19 – 00:10:28:02

Mike

And that’s best done by keeping some areas of the old culture in place. So almost act like a cultural guardrail, if you will, for employees as they move towards a new culture. in that way, they feel comfortable, happy. The transition. And that means they won’t be moving too quickly or feel alienated by what’s in front of them.

00:10:28:04 – 00:10:33:06

Hannah

There’s not a whole scale change. It’s incrementally sort of steps.

00:10:33:06 – 00:10:54:09

Mike

Yes. and, and I think that’s really important, actually. you need to take the whole people with you all the time. and if you are scaling up at pace, as some digital businesses will, and you don’t take everyone with you or they feel culturally, disabled, then I think you risk, disaster. Frankly, in scaling up attempts.

00:10:54:11 – 00:10:55:10

Hannah

Absolutely.

00:10:55:12 – 00:11:18:01

Mike

I think the next area, certainly internally that I’d like to look at, is that a business models and a business model is really just the logic of how a business makes value. And in digital businesses, it’s very different. And this is because the work of digital takes place in dynamic and fluid work environments. things are changing very fast.

00:11:18:03 – 00:11:42:03

Mike

And therefore the winners are those who, constantly review their business models for their relevance. and even when the business is doing well, are checking to ensure that it still has, underplayed relevance for going forward. And, also checking, the competition and seeing what they’re doing in terms of their business models and, making sure that, those are valid.

00:11:42:03 – 00:11:58:03

Mike

Two, there’s a really good website, actually, for anybody not sure about what a business model is, called business model Xcom encourage people to go to that, to understand more about this. But, that is the enabler of technology, if you will.

00:11:58:05 – 00:12:25:07

Hannah

Yeah, absolutely. So Mike, within your book, you dive into a number of different areas and talent management. And so what I’d love to do with you today is dip into each one of those. Yeah. I think it’s safe to say that we’re barely scratching the surface of what’s actually in the book. So of course, we’d recommend that everyone goes out and buys themselves a copy and reads it.

00:12:25:12 – 00:12:53:06

Hannah

But this hopefully gives people a little bit of a flavor for what’s in there. So the first, section that I think we’ll, we’ll talk about is we’ll dive into is recruitment. So, and the question that I want to ask here is, how do recruiters attract key digital talent to their business? Because that is, a challenge that we hear about time and time again from clients.

00:12:53:06 – 00:13:01:14

Hannah

And we probably be hearing it for a couple of years, and no one seems to have come up with the answer. to that, I think. So what’s what’s your view?

00:13:01:20 – 00:13:25:20

Mike

Because the answer is multifaceted, I think, as you might have guessed. Yeah. I think the first thing, blindingly obvious power, competitive wage we know is psychologist that money is never satisfied, but it is a dissatisfied, and people will be more likely to attend to head hunters phone calls if they feel they’re not being paid fairly, or the market rate has moved above what they’ve been currently being remunerated for.

00:13:25:21 – 00:13:49:14

Mike

Yeah, so do get that bit right. And as a defense mechanism, that will tend to retain more people to come if that’s the case, I think to look at technology specific communities. slack, for example, is a business communicate platform with both, open and private channels of communication. And I think that would be one avenue to try.

00:13:49:16 – 00:14:15:14

Mike

Certainly having a look at communities like that, I think look internally as well, as a really good example on the civil assessment website work. Thank you for that. But what you did, with Recurve Europe. Yeah. who are going to have a strategic review and about to lay off, a number of people who are competent in role but not part of the strategy going forward.

00:14:15:16 – 00:14:41:15

Mike

And, from my understanding, you conducted an assessment of their suitability to undertake digital roles in the future. And a number of those went through that and were trained and developed. And you found or Rica Europe found 100 people for hard to fill roles. Now that for me is a cracking example actually, of looking internally and using assessment and techniques for the benefit of people going forward.

00:14:41:17 – 00:14:42:14

Hannah

It really is.

00:14:42:16 – 00:14:54:21

Mike

I also I think those people would be really grateful. they’ve been they kept your role kept at the same organization. they’ve learned to develop new skills. And from the business point of view, these are people now acculturated.

00:14:55:01 – 00:14:58:03

Hannah

Yes. And so links back to the culture piece it is.

00:14:58:03 – 00:15:29:05

Mike

And you’re de-risking their appointment as a result. Much more likely to stay with you now. because, they’ve been treated very fairly and given a good chance and developed in role as well. yeah, definitely. So I think that’s one, one area. I think that, it pays to build relationships. It obviously does in any recruitment format, but it’s critical, with it talent, it’s no good going to the market once someone’s designed and speaking to a web developer and saying, come and join us.

00:15:29:07 – 00:15:50:21

Mike

because they’ve already been tapped up by your competitors. You’ve built relationships over a period of time. So, relationship building should be, a matter of course. You can’t have transactional, recruitment in that way. It just doesn’t work anymore. And I think the final thing is to look at new sources of innovation. it takes one to know one.

00:15:50:23 – 00:16:14:05

Mike

So referral is, I think, a one real avenue to look at. There is a business called Real Links, which does, something called a referral jam. and this is where, you get candidates together, or rather, you get, employees together from your own business, for a half hour online jam where they, produce referrals from their contacts.

00:16:14:07 – 00:16:25:00

Mike

And there’s a really good, case study on the Real Links website, of the work they did with Ocado, where they got 354 referrals within half an hour.

00:16:25:02 – 00:16:26:07

Hannah

So it’s pretty impressive.

00:16:26:08 – 00:16:36:05

Mike

It is. It’s that sort of use of technology, actually, for hard to fill roles that I think it’s quite innovative, quite different. And certainly people could consider as one way forward.

00:16:36:07 – 00:16:37:04

Hannah

Definitely.

00:16:37:06 – 00:17:11:04

Mike

So I think in summary, keep it relational, not transactional. Do offer learning and development. particularly informal learning development, learning in the flow of work rather than classroom orientated, to keep offer meaningful work rather than repetitive work. And do offer work that is highly collaborative rather than stovepipe to working in hierarchical settings. most digital talent these days expects to work in agile work environments.

00:17:11:06 – 00:17:18:15

Mike

And, if you’re offering all that, I think you’re going to stand the best chance of recruiting the best talent going forward.

00:17:18:17 – 00:17:46:04

Hannah

Excellent summary. Thank you. Mike. Maybe let’s dive specifically now into, kind of selection, which is obviously part of recruitment, which is much more specific. You argue in the book, that for high stakes selection in digital businesses, we’re actually not measuring the right things. Tell us a little bit about yeah.

00:17:46:04 – 00:18:29:04

Mike

Yeah, yeah. so I think that when we’re doing high stick selection, were usually measuring something like the same competencies that be commercial acumen, strategic thinking, communication influencing, relationship building, team working and all that sort of good stuff. And I think you should still need to measure some of those. But in the digital world and new behaviors, you need to measure up to, and I’ll give you a practical example of what that’s looked like in the world of, when the competency rather of creativity and innovation, you would probably want to assess a senior leader for his or her ability to set out a culture of creative and innovative thinking, recognize and reward

00:18:29:04 – 00:19:02:03

Mike

those who do it really well, generate bright ideas, and celebrate those when they are brought to market and they deliver a new product. That would be what you’d be expected to measure. you also, in the digital sense though, be measuring their ability to conduct a B testing on platforms. so trialing out these new ideas with the customers, that gives you real time feedback on their likely acceptance, in the marketplace.

00:19:02:05 – 00:19:24:17

Mike

And I be expecting to see a lot more of that sort of questions being asked. And, with the viewpoint that actually that sort of testing would deliver minimum viable prototypes, that, again, you can test in the marketplace and assess for their suitability. So it’s that sort of indicators of a core behavior around creativity, innovation that it would be assessing for at the moment.

00:19:26:08 – 00:19:30:00

Hannah

So it’s a different way of doing creativity.

00:19:30:02 – 00:19:50:10

Mike

Yes it is. Yes it is. it’s not throwing the old ways out. They still matter. again if you’re assessing customer focus or you’re assessing for a sales director, you’d still want somebody who goes out and meets customers, looks in the eye, and has good, highly developed influencing persuasive skills and can seal the deal.

00:19:50:12 – 00:20:06:13

Mike

but they’ve also got to do all stuff. They again have got to use technology to understand customer vote of intent and make sure that they’re fully up to date with the real time data that’s coming through from that. and a can adapt their, sales techniques accordingly.

00:20:06:15 – 00:20:14:20

Hannah

So it’s that comfort with data and the ability to pick it up and use it to help them make decisions about where they should focus.

00:20:14:20 – 00:20:32:20

Mike

And to interrogate platforms to give you early warning of customer. changes in behavior. that I think keep you ahead of the competition. you’re not waiting now for surveys or voter groups. Vote focus groups tell you can action that stuff now. Yeah. And react to that quickly.

00:20:32:22 – 00:20:38:05

Hannah

And so how might your assessment process change. Do we need to do things differently there.

00:20:38:07 – 00:21:00:15

Mike

I think we do. I think it’ll change because some of the behaviors are going to change. I think generally speaking for digital roles work in, quite fluid and dynamic work environments. there’s probably more complexity now because things are changing so quickly. And that does put a premium, on intellectual and aptitude skills.

00:21:00:17 – 00:21:03:17

Hannah

Actually, we were talking about this earlier when we were.

00:21:03:19 – 00:21:18:14

Mike

It does matter that people can, be comfortable making such judgments under conditions of uncertainty. and, we were able to measure that psychometric as you know, and, but I think that’s much more to the fore now than it has been with analog businesses in the past.

00:21:18:14 – 00:21:21:22

Hannah

Yes, definitely. Intellect. Risky.

00:21:22:02 – 00:21:23:21

Mike

Yes. Yeah.

00:21:23:23 – 00:21:28:02

Hannah

So thinking now about, employee retention. Yeah.

00:21:28:02 – 00:21:29:20

Mike

Yeah.

00:21:29:22 – 00:21:47:01

Hannah

You’re quite critical of annual appraisal systems and I don’t think you’re alone there actually. But what in your view, should replace them? What else should be happening?

00:21:47:02 – 00:22:12:22

Mike

There is no more revival to process in businesses than the annual appraisal review. disliked intensely, I think, by both the appraiser and the appraiser. Yes. For its backward facing nature and, judgmental nature to, and the belief that nothing ever happens out of it. It just sits as a form somewhere in air and gathers dust. that’s the bad news.

00:22:12:24 – 00:22:43:02

Mike

The good news is that, I think, digital technologies enable a new performance, dawn, to emerge. that is, future focused rather than backward focused. That is developmental, rather than judgmental. that is a data driven rather than subjective and, that is evaluated within the context of team performance. This is really important not just to get individual contributions.

00:22:43:02 – 00:23:15:01

Mike

Here. We’re looking at how that individual works effectively within the context of project teams, particularly the agile project team. Yes. Example. And that means that, feedback needs to change. And I think goal setting needs to change as well. And if we just talk about feedback first, I think it’s an erroneous assumption to make that senior leaders all have both the willingness and the knowledge to give feedback effectively.

00:23:15:03 – 00:23:17:02

Mike

some of them don’t. We know that.

00:23:17:04 – 00:23:18:04

Hannah

Why do you think that is?

00:23:18:04 – 00:23:49:11

Mike

Well, Haha. some of them find difficulty with that. I think technical leaders in particular have a difficulty with that. But we know from research that recently we conducted that showed that 3.8 reviews, not feedback sessions a week over a three week period. if that was increased to ten at significantly increased work performance because it strengthens the relationship between the line manager and the team member, and we know that correlates with improved performance.

00:23:49:13 – 00:24:12:16

Mike

So there is now a really pressing need, I think, to ensure that all live managers, even if it’s just one person, have good feedback training, they know how to do it. Hopefully they’re motivated to do it effectively because that leads to better performance. And that means that actually, there’s no need really for an annual review because through a talent platform, feedback is helping.

00:24:12:16 – 00:24:40:06

Mike

It is happening regularly, certainly weekly. and I think allied to that is a need to be setting constant goals as well. We know from psychology that, setting ambitious goals, which those retrievable, are a motivator and are certainly better than setting easy goals or no goals at all. the beauty of, digital transformation is that actually you can alter the goals as you go along.

00:24:40:08 – 00:24:50:04

Mike

In other words, you’re not setting a goal in the annual review in January that you’re then reviewing in December. I mean, that’s pointless these days. the world is far too fractionalized yeah.

00:24:50:06 – 00:24:51:11

Hannah

Things change too.

00:24:51:11 – 00:25:13:03

Mike

Fast. It is. But talent platforms enable you to set goals much more regularly. and to keep those flexible and as a when they are accomplished or not, then new goals can be set. So you might actually have a series of six changing goals over a 12 month period. so, a new performance, management dawn on the horizon and a not before time.

00:25:13:03 – 00:25:16:10

Hannah

How ready do you think organizations are for that?

00:25:16:12 – 00:25:35:20

Mike

Well, it has to be done with a talent platform. I do believe that the number of all of this, I think that, I see some organizations doing it. Well, I see some not doing it at all. but it does enable if you really want to keep digital talent, you do have to keep people motivated.

00:25:35:22 – 00:25:53:02

Mike

and, most people leave, unfortunately, because they don’t get on with their boss. so training the boss to, feedback effectively and, ensure, good communication between him or her and the subordinate, I think is absolutely key.

00:25:53:04 – 00:26:08:10

Hannah

You talk to there about you, you’ve seen some organizations do this really well, some not. So what are the differentiating factor, sir? What are the things that organizations who are doing this well doing that ones who aren’t doing?

00:26:08:13 – 00:26:30:16

Mike

I think they’ve invested, not just in talent platforms. I think they’ve also invested in, the HR teams as well, giving them the skills to, know how to adapt to digital work environments and making sure they’re upskilled as, HR business partners to make the very best use of, very best use of the tools that are coming their way.

00:26:30:18 – 00:26:44:01

Mike

And I think that’s a key differentiator these days. Sometimes, HR, I think are often at the bottom of the list, both for it investment in platforms, but also sometimes for training. And, that needs to change.

00:26:44:03 – 00:27:19:12

Hannah

Definitely, definitely. And I guess we’re sort of segway in quite nicely into development territory here. You talk there about, this being something that is developmental and not judgmental, that the feedback process and that link to kind of constant appraisal rather than an annual appraisal. The question I want to ask here is how effective is digital learning? You talked about, the on New World post pandemic earlier.

00:27:19:12 – 00:27:45:16

Hannah

Yeah. Yeah. Homeworking hybrid working I mean we’ve certainly run more virtual training courses than face to face courses since the pandemic. And it it’s the new way of doing things. No longer do people fly colleagues across the world to meet in one place to run a training course. It tends to be digital. so yeah, how effective do you think digital learning is?

00:27:45:18 – 00:28:10:09

Mike

just as effective as face to face is a very short answer. but you’re quite right to say, actually that, online learning, has increased dramatically. I think, pre-pandemic, about a third of the, training and development interventions would be online during the pandemic. That rose every period amounts to at least half, and it’s carried on that way post-pandemic, and it’s saving a lot of money.

00:28:10:11 – 00:28:30:18

Mike

as a result, just in the way you described, I think it’s actually less about the modality of learning and more about a number of other factors that affect the quality of learning. for example, the quality of the instructor and how present he or she is during the, learning intervention.

00:28:30:20 – 00:28:41:12

Hannah

Do you think that the instruction instructor needs different skills? Yes, at all in, digital virtual setting compared to face to face setting?

00:28:41:18 – 00:29:11:16

Mike

I do, yes. I think, probably being more expressive many ways because one of the issues with digital that we find also in zoom is it filters out non-verbal behaviors. It’s much more difficult to read a person’s, body language through zoom than it is if you’re faced in a virtual in a face to face environment. So yes, there is a big difference between one way another, but I think other issues are around, the quality of learner interaction.

00:29:11:18 – 00:29:33:16

Mike

You can still interact really well, actually. with an online learning environment, you use chat boxes or you raise your hand to communicate, and I think, support outside the classroom matters to, and, you can do that both, virtually and in person. A couple of other issues I think are unique to the online learning environment.

00:29:33:18 – 00:29:59:12

Mike

Firstly, making sure that, everybody’s comfortable with the technologies and that means having some sort of induction program beforehand to take people through it virtually so they know how to operate it and work it to the very best that they can and make the best use of the learning and development that’s available. That way. I think learning overall is best done in the flow of work.

00:29:59:14 – 00:30:03:11

Mike

just in time, just enough and just for me.

00:30:03:13 – 00:30:21:05

Hannah

Absolutely. I could not agree more. How do you just maybe staying on that for a moment? how do you do that most effectively? If you think about what you’ve seen organizations do over the years.

00:30:21:05 – 00:30:22:12

Mike

Yeah. Okay.

00:30:22:13 – 00:30:26:02

Hannah

What advice would you give people who are thinking about setting that sort of thing up?

00:30:26:04 – 00:30:53:17

Mike

I think one advice I give to learning and development professionals is don’t be swayed by the bells and whistles of new technologies. the old theories about the principles of applied human learning and the transfer of training from the classroom to the workplace still matter. I know they’ve written 30 or 40 or 50 years ago, but they’re still relevant now.

00:30:53:19 – 00:31:17:17

Mike

And it is not a reason to, discard those, to pursue more sort of, trendy ways of learning, so to speak. that’s not going to, help transfer learning from the classroom to the workplace. And that’s what we’re after, because in that way, people are adopting new and different behaviors to achieve a commercial goal, which is my definition of learning.

00:31:17:19 – 00:31:44:07

Hannah

Absolutely. And I guess linking to, the post-pandemic world and the hybrid working. I think one of the things that comes up a lot in conversations that I have with clients in the learning and development space is particularly for more junior employees who maybe joined the organization either during the pandemic or post-pandemic. So this is for them, not a new world.

00:31:44:07 – 00:32:06:21

Hannah

This is the world. But maybe what hasn’t caught up is almost there. I hear it referred to as osmosis learning by osmosis, which in our old world would be sitting amongst your colleagues and overhearing conversations and listening to them on the phone so much, much less structured in terms of learning. Yeah, very much sort of on the job.

00:32:06:22 – 00:32:08:02

Mike

Yes.

00:32:08:04 – 00:32:20:04

Hannah

but that we get so much less of now that we’re all sitting on our own, in our homes, at our desks. have you got any thoughts on how to manage that type of learning?

00:32:20:06 – 00:32:45:10

Mike

Yeah, yeah, we’re learning the flow of work is clearly one. I think there’s a greater understanding that people can learn through their mobile phones to, and they can be taking that learning with them anywhere they want to. Yeah. So you can take it on the commute with you, if you will. You can access your phone and you can learn best that way and, using modern technologies for that so that people learn wherever they happen to be whenever they want to learn.

00:32:45:12 – 00:32:47:01

Mike

I think it’s certainly a way forward.

00:32:47:02 – 00:32:50:12

Hannah

That’s a very good point. I did an online course on my phone on the way into.

00:32:50:14 – 00:32:51:07

Mike

fantastic.

00:32:51:12 – 00:32:52:12

Hannah

Morning.

00:32:52:14 – 00:32:55:12

Mike

Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah.

00:32:55:14 – 00:33:22:17

Hannah

So, Mike, maybe we’ll finish up by thinking about, where do we go from here and. Yeah. Yeah, maybe I’m a bit preemptive to say, finishing up because I’ve got a few questions. Yeah. on this topic, first of all, what do you think, the implications of digital transformation on H.R. And talent team. So what will they need to be doing differently?

00:33:22:19 – 00:33:48:03

Mike

Yeah, sure. a number of years ago, IPM came up with the notion of, HR 3.0. and that contains ten points. And if I just briefly run through those, I think in succession, I think that may be helpful. Yeah. firstly, that, HR teams should be measuring employee performance continuously just in a way you’ve described earlier in the questions.

00:33:48:06 – 00:34:14:11

Mike

So no use waiting for, for the annual appraisal that now forms a key part of, performance management. Secondly, I think investing in new leadership skills, just in the way you’ve described earlier, leaders are going to have to adapt to changes in their work and, and technology and adopt new skill sets. And that includes HR business partners, too, just in a way we’ve talked about a bit earlier.

00:34:14:13 – 00:34:36:01

Mike

next, I think, have to feel comfortable designing and managing agile project teams and understanding how to do that really well and to train people how to work effectively in teams. sometimes I don’t think team training gets the high profile it should do. You just put people into a team and you assume that they’re going to collaborate, communicate effectively?

00:34:36:06 – 00:34:59:14

Mike

Actually, they need to be taught, how to do that. And, team training is a vital component in that. Next, I think that they need to consider paying for performance rather than tenure. It’s not, how long you’ve been in the organization that determines your pay rise at the end of the, it’s how you’re performing. And for that, some organizations that’s going to be quite a quantum shift.

00:34:59:15 – 00:35:01:01

Mike

definitely going forward.

00:35:01:01 – 00:35:02:11

Hannah

Yeah.

00:35:02:13 – 00:35:31:17

Mike

I think, just we’ve we’ve described bonus skills and the flow of work, whether it’s you learning on your mobile phone, coming into work. but giving people that flexibility to, self-developed themselves and give them the toolkit to be able to do that really effectively. It’s important, I think, modernizing using HR technology systems, investing in the best platforms, to enable them to do, the very best jobs they can.

00:35:31:19 – 00:35:47:15

Mike

And I think critically applying data driven insights. And this introduces us to the relatively emerging science of people analytics. it’s actually never an MSC course in people analytics at the University of Hull.

00:35:47:15 – 00:35:48:17

Hannah

So interesting.

00:35:48:17 – 00:36:00:16

Mike

Yeah, that’s that’s why I guess it’s it’s an emerging in science. But, I think the data suggests actually this is not had the take up amongst the HR that you might expect.

00:36:00:18 – 00:36:03:09

Hannah

Or and why do you think that is?

00:36:03:11 – 00:36:18:05

Mike

I think that because it is quantitative. Yes. And very, dry and cold that some people in nature, would be put off by that.

00:36:18:07 – 00:36:20:01

Hannah

possibly find it a bit daunting.

00:36:20:01 – 00:36:25:03

Mike

I think so, and possibly not the reason they came into for. Yeah. Attach numbers to people.

00:36:25:03 – 00:36:25:15

Hannah

Yeah.

00:36:25:16 – 00:36:49:14

Mike

Yeah. And therefore put off by it. But it does enable them if they use it correctly to ask different questions I think or enable senior leaders to ask different questions about H.R teams for example, as opposed to something like, what is the attrition rate in our business? You might be asking another question such, what are the people factors that are impacting business performance?

00:36:49:16 – 00:36:56:10

Mike

And that’s a different, more strategic sort of question. That’s data driven by the sort of data that people analytics will generate.

00:37:00:06 – 00:37:11:24

Hannah

How do you. How do you instill a desire in. More HR folk to get into that stuff.

00:37:12:01 – 00:37:36:11

Mike

yeah. It’s a it’s a difficult question. and I think that HR teams will have to, incorporate more analysts into their process. And in the case in the past, actually, yeah, especially as people who are comfortable in this arena to generate this data and make sure that it’s valid and reliable for decision making purposes and feed it to the HR team and to senior leaders.

00:37:36:13 – 00:37:40:18

Mike

because it is predictive. Yeah. As we know if it’s used properly and if. Yes. Yes.

00:37:40:20 – 00:37:41:20

Hannah

Absolutely.

00:37:41:22 – 00:38:07:05

Mike

Yeah. I think the evidence suggests actually that only about 10% of HR teams have achieved what you’ve just described, which is the basic sort of actual 3.0. But I think it’s important they change because there are some people out there who would seek to take away some traditional aspects of HR and put them under a different hat or different authority.

00:38:07:05 – 00:38:41:09

Mike

I’ll give you an example of what I mean. some senior leaders view recruitment as so important now, because the talent equation is so vital that they see that being taken out of H.R and given to a senior director, at board level. And that’s because the skill sets required of recruiters, and the behaviors required of recruiters, aggressive, invasive, highly focused and highly energetic, and therefore therefore they see HR as being everything that you do.

00:38:41:09 – 00:38:54:08

Mike

Once someone has joined a company that’s a different skill set than that, the recruiters are due to adopt going forward, and they don’t see those two skill set behaviors sitting equitably under the same roof.

00:38:54:09 – 00:38:55:04

Hannah

Interesting.

00:38:55:04 – 00:39:17:16

Mike

Now HR people watching this podcast will probably rail against that, but I just put it out there. I in the it, I put it out there as a, as a thought that some senior leaders are taking that as a, as a viewpoint going forward. That’s one way to progress. To make sure that the right talent is delivered to the business at the time.

00:39:17:18 – 00:39:19:12

Mike

00:39:19:14 – 00:39:42:04

Hannah

Really interesting. A whole nother podcast episode discussion I believe we can tap on that topic. Yeah. You suggest in the book Mike that the digital revolution spells the end of jobs as a kind of structural unit of work. tell us a bit about that.

00:39:42:06 – 00:40:04:00

Mike

Yes. It’s not my it’s not my thought. it comes here. It comes from two good sources, actually. One is a book called The End of Jobs by a guy called Jeff Wald. Another is a researcher working for a Deloitte’s in New York, or Sue Campbell, and they write quite extensively on this. and it comes from the viewpoint that work is becoming much more fractionalized and much more project focused.

00:40:04:02 – 00:40:33:13

Mike

And, the key structural unit that determines membership of your project team is not going to be your job role anymore. It’s the skills that you bring to the job, and therefore the work of the future is seen. People with complementary skill sets who swarm around a particular project, complete that project likely disband and may reform again some time later, perhaps for a different organization to attack that project in the same way.

00:40:33:15 – 00:40:57:14

Mike

So it’s about the complementarity, the skills, rather than the job title itself that determines membership of those project teams going forward. And that’s part and parcel of on demand talent, which is a result of why so many people are working in the gig economy these days and are predicted to continue to grow over the future. I think, it’s been caused by a number of other reasons as well.

00:40:57:14 – 00:41:18:13

Mike

I think it’s just a worldwide skills gap, particularly in digital talent. Even China with 1.8 billion people can’t get enough digital talent in the business and therefore again, have to go to 1 to 1 talent to do that. I think work is becoming more fractionalized just in the way I’ve described. It’s more broken up, it’s more project based.

00:41:18:15 – 00:41:45:01

Mike

People, are being paid per project now rather than power. And I think team based work is much more to the form now than has ever been the case as well, particularly agile teams. And therefore people need to have competencies in working in agile teams as well. and I think generally speaking in a more holistic sense it has to move away from traditional organizational structures.

00:41:45:03 – 00:42:00:13

Mike

very big organizations are struggling to get people to work from these days. young talent coming in prefer to work for nimbler, trendier. Yes. More agile organizations? Yes. Big colonization. So struggling to compete for talent in that area?

00:42:00:18 – 00:42:23:08

Hannah

Absolutely. And I think they’re seeing that and I’ve certainly heard a number of, kind of larger organization clients talk about the fact that they are pivoting to skills. Yes. for the reasons that you’ve described there. I think for, you know, sort of these huge kind of multinationals, that is a task and a half.

00:42:23:08 – 00:42:31:19

Hannah

Yes. What do you think the main challenges are going to be for, for them, for those really big organizations that are trying to do this.

00:42:31:21 – 00:42:58:14

Mike

They have to make themselves a whole lot more attractive to younger talent coming in. and I think they have to start thinking about how they go in attracting digital talent to the business. There’s a really good case study, actually, by, Cisco UK, who, went into schools with a pathways project designed to 11 to 12 year olds, just a time when people are thinking about the careers.

00:42:58:16 – 00:43:24:24

Mike

And if I’m two things from a pathways project, came out of it in particular. One was that this increased the ratio of BA ami and female children interested in pursuing a Stem career. And secondly, that actually they got 70% people would consider a job with Cisco once they were leaving school as either, an apprentice or a full time role.

00:43:24:24 – 00:43:50:07

Mike

So getting in early like that organization’s making a difference when people are thinking going to schools and universities, putting themselves out there is one way around that. secondly, they’ve got to wake up that people don’t want to work for stovepipe, hierarchical, structured organizations anymore. It just doesn’t. The world of work just isn’t about that. and, they need to change rapidly.

00:43:50:09 – 00:43:51:22

Mike

otherwise would be disrupted.

00:43:51:24 – 00:43:52:21

Hannah

Absolutely.

00:43:52:23 – 00:43:53:20

Mike

Beforehand.

00:43:53:22 – 00:44:12:19

Hannah

And I guess the, coming back to data and platforms that give you the information that you need so that you can pull together teams in the way that you need to. And when you need to. Yes, it’s really critical ability and have it and having good data as as part.

00:44:12:20 – 00:44:23:12

Mike

Yes. Yes. And having a flexible, responsive work culture, an environment, where people are comfortable working in those sorts of areas, and regard work as fun.

00:44:23:14 – 00:44:48:06

Hannah

And finally and I think this is something that we’ve, we’ve sort of touched on a couple of at a couple of points in our conversation, but, a really important thing to to think about. And in this context, you discuss kind of issues of diversity and inclusion extensively across the book. What would you say are the key messages for the future here?

00:44:48:12 – 00:45:07:15

Mike

I think with the shortage of digital talent or just talent as a whole in the Western world, it just makes real good commercial sense to cast the net as wide as possible. Why? We do not want to do that. you know, to give yourself the best chance of employing people who can help you achieve your business goals.

00:45:07:17 – 00:45:37:04

Mike

So I think there’s a commercial reason to do that. I think artificial intelligence, actually helps, diversity, inclusion because it eliminates bias, in terms of both recruitment and selection when it’s used appropriately and effectively. So that’s a positive going forward. I think that moving on, there is some advice I would give around training and development around diversity.

00:45:37:06 – 00:46:06:24

Mike

And that is not to mandate it. Don’t make it a compliance objective. Don’t design and develop specific courses around it. Rather make it part of every learning and development intervention that happens in your business. And that way it becomes culturally embedded, and that way it’s much more likely to find acceptance rather than being regarded as something that’s, a compliance objective going forward.

00:46:07:01 – 00:46:07:11

Mike

you’re.

00:46:07:11 – 00:46:12:03

Hannah

You’re not doing two people. Yes. And so them yeah.

00:46:12:05 – 00:46:38:05

Mike

It just becomes part of why we do work round here. do we treat people fairly or equitably and, that everyone is treated, as they would expect to be treated. Yeah. And then I think leads us probably to a slightly different definition of fairness than has traditionally been the case. There is some research out that suggests people don’t actually want to be treated the same.

00:46:38:07 – 00:46:58:12

Mike

They want to be treated according to who they are as people, where they are in terms of their work life, their personal value set and the quality of work that they do. I think that’s one point. And I think people from ethnic minorities don’t want to be picked because they come from ethnic minorities or because they’re female or anything else.

00:46:58:14 – 00:47:21:00

Mike

They want to be picked, frankly, because they want to do a really good job. and, their diversity variable is not part of that consideration for them. So kind of a shift in opinion in those two areas. I sense, I think are important for people to consider, designing, diversity in, interventions going forward.

00:47:21:02 – 00:47:40:19

Hannah

So rather than, say, designing and running a Women in Leadership program. Yeah, it’s more about running a leadership program, but making sure that you have a properly representative demographic as part of your cohort.

00:47:40:21 – 00:48:03:12

Mike

Yes. I’m not averse to women being given, supportive learning development for them, particularly as they are in most countries of the world. the delay for the main caregivers these days, that means that actually, they’re missed out on some development that men will have access to. So that’s sort of a context. I’m, comfortable that it happens.

00:48:03:14 – 00:48:14:09

Mike

but I think on sort of training people on diversity and inclusion specifically, that is best done, as part and parcel of every other training, intervention you do.

00:48:14:10 – 00:48:14:21

Hannah

I see.

00:48:15:02 – 00:48:16:19

Mike

Rather than, rather than a.

00:48:16:19 – 00:48:19:04

Hannah

One off. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense.

00:48:19:07 – 00:48:21:07

Mike

Yeah.

00:48:21:09 – 00:48:25:18

Hannah

Mike, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you too much for.

00:48:25:18 – 00:48:27:24

Mike

Joining us today for the vote.

00:48:28:01 – 00:48:29:02

Hannah

Take care. Okay.

00:48:29:04 – 00:48:38:00

Mike

Thank you. Just.

00:48:38:02 – 00:49:00:09

Hannah

We hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode of The Deep Dive. If you have, please remember to like and subscribe to. Stay tuned for all our latest content. If you want more information on any of the topics you’ve heard today, check out the show notes for case studies, resources, and articles. I’ve been Hannah, Melanie. See you next time on the Deep Dive.